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Help talk:IPA/Japanese

Does this really represent Okinawan, as claimed?

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This page claims to represent both Japanese and Okinawan, but according to Okinawan language#Consonants, Okinawan retains the labialised /kʷ/ and /ɡʷ/ that Japanese lost. Those are not represented in the key. Double sharp (talk) 05:09, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've watched and edited this key for years and somehow I never noticed it said it covered Okinawan! Okinawan has a different ISO 639 code, and {{IPA-ryu}} doesn't link to this page and is used in nine articles (and at least five of them use it for other Ryukyuan languages). I've gone through every IPA-ja transclusions a couple times some years ago and never seen it used for Okinawan (and if I had I would have replaced it). As you point out the key does not actually cover Okinawan and a key for Okinawan/Ryukyuan should be created separately if there are enough use cases (which there aren't atm). Removing boldly. Nardog (talk) 16:33, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clutter On the use of a minor prosodic break

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User:Mazamadao has singlehandedly added a symbol accompanied by a cluttering list of examples without seeking prior consensus and without aligning existing transcriptions to the new help page. I asked them to open a discussion but I wasn’t listened. Let’s see if they’re willing to discuss here rather than on my personal talk page. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 19:40, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would actually support adding the ⟨|⟩ symbol to all guides that need it, i.e. those that allow allophony transcending word boundaries to be transcribed. On the other hand, this would be alienating to many editors who don't have as much phonetic knowledge of the transcribed language, or it would create transcriptions not supported by the key, which is (arguably) even worse. Then, there are cases where there are multiple places where you can put the minor break, you can also skip them (I'm not really a fan of a parenthesised ⟨(|)⟩ just as I'm not a fan of a parenthesised palatalization mark in Help:IPA/Ukrainian). I'm not at all sure about Japanese, though. I'm ambivalent. It's certainly good for allophonic transcriptions of specific recordings (its bigger brother ⟨||⟩ is not as useful in my experience, though). Sol505000 (talk) 21:30, 9 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my case. In Japanese dictionary transcription (and I don't give a damn about "other languages"), in order to make it clear that there are two distinct prosodic phrases, a middle dot is used, as in ミナモトノ・ヨリトモ. Now obviously this is not compatible with the IPA, so we have to convert it. The English literature, including Vance's The Sound of Japanese, Labrune's Phonology of Japanese, etc terms these prosodic phrases "minor phrases" or "accentual phrases". The symbol for a minor break is |, which is used by Vance. Why it's important to use this symbol? Because the fundamentals of pitch accent dictate that there can't be more than one pitch fall in a minor phrase. This means that if there are more than one pitch fall, there must be more than one phrase. The minor break lets us know that there's a pitch "reset", which is signaled by a pitch rise from the first mora to the second of each phrase. In the NHK and Shin Meikai dictionaries, this is shown graphically by a lack of a "high" mark on the 1st mora. A parenthesized break, (|) signals that the break is optional in some cases, usually when one of the phrases is unaccented. Mr Scrooge here arbitrarily decided that that was unnecessary because "other languages" don't need it, even though that literally doesn't mean anything relevant, and proposed that spaces are good enough, which is not what spaces are for even for "other languages" as he ignorantly claims. Spaces are for word breaks, and we need to maintain this distinction between a word break and a prosodic break where there's a discrepancy between the word count and prosodic phrase count. Thus we have something like [minamoto no (|) joɾitomo] where there are three words but two minor phrases. In fact, prosodic breaks may be necessary for some African languages with similar tonal structures to Japanese, although I have enough humility to not elaborate on things I know nothing about. The minor break is crucial to accurately transcribe long phrases, including names of notable figures and organizations, which are frequently pronounced as multiple minor phrases. Mazamadao (talk) 07:56, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Here are some visuals in case my verbal explanation's confusing:
You don't get to tell me to open discussions given how you clearly thought you were the ultimate authority on this. The onus was on you to open this discussion. And again, quit gesturing vaguely at "existing transcriptions" of "other languages". What does that have to do with anything? You seem to have some unknown problem with the vertical bar, an official IPA character, that you've refused to explain, while pretending it was about "clutter". What is it? If it was about clutter, why not discuss with me on how to reduce clutter and improve clarity, instead of obstinately removing a crucial transcription feature? You just quietly got rid of it and are now making up inconsistent excuses about "clutter" and I don't buy your them for a second. Mazamadao (talk) 07:38, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"I wasn’t listened" Oh really? You do know how frustrating it is to be talking to an unresponsive opponent? Mazamadao (talk) 08:04, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The onus was on you to open this discussion. That is not correct - see WP:BRD. You're the one who added that character to the guide. As it wasn't present before, transcriptions linking to this guide had not been using it up to the point of its addition here. See MOS:IPAINTEGRITY, which applies to all guides alike, not just this one. Ivan is correct on this (assuming this is what he meant, which I think he did). Sol505000 (talk) 08:10, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What is it with Wikipedia editors stupidly taking the hard route and not providing guidelines like this when requested. I kept asking Scrooge a thousand times before what grounds he had and all I got was "too much stuff". This is like the fifth time this time-wasting idiocy has happened. If facts are on your side, why lie or obfuscate? Mazamadao (talk) 08:18, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You would think someone who decides to revolutionize an IPA key would know that there are hundreds or thousands of pages pointing there. As I told you multiple times. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 09:20, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
What does that have to do with anything? Address the issue and quit diverting. I'll admit I have violated some procedure I didn't know about, which I do now only thanks to Sol505000, no thanks to you. Again, what's your problem with that one IPA symbol in particular, Mr Weasel? Mazamadao (talk) 10:50, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I never said I have a problem with the symbol. I have a problem with adding it with a verbose explanation, which was completely out of place, and countless unnecessary examples, as well as the fact it wouldn’t match the linked transcriptions, and ultimately with the fact that you unilaterally applied this important change without seeking prior consensus. How many times should I repeat it? ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 11:12, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Enough with the lies and deflections. You removed the entire symbol, keep insisting it's not "helpful", that only spaces suffice, that "other languages" don't need it, only backtracked when I explained why the symbol is necessary. The "clutter" part is an excuse to cover your real intent. The "verbose" explanations can be trimmed down, but doesn't have to be removed altogether. They're in the footnotes just like the other explanations on the same page. There are four examples, about one or two more than other sets of examples, not "countless" (now this is just a blatant lie), because I knew this concept is a bit more advanced and foreign to non-Japanese speakers. What "linked transcriptions"? I applied it because I didn't know whether the procedure involved consesus-seeking debate. What did you do anyway? Making up subjective judgments, refusing to cite that WP:BRD thing, despite being asked repeatedly not to do so. How many times should I repeat this? Mazamadao (talk) 11:27, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Pages with Japanese IPA. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 11:35, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh FFS, what the hell is this? Are you hellbent on not resolving this or what? Mazamadao (talk) 11:39, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you don’t know what that is you are the one who’s not listening. I’ll leave this to other editors to deal with. Have fun. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 11:45, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. "Open a discussion with somebody else who actually knows what they're talking about so I don't have to deal with the sh*t I started any more because I don't know anything and have no argument". Got it. Mazamadao (talk) 11:55, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Like at least don't make up obvious lies. The edit history and all our exchanges are still there aren't they? Mazamadao (talk) 11:32, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell from your responses, your argument boils down too, "I don't like it here because I don't see it anywhere else". That's moronic. Mazamadao (talk) 10:52, 10 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The symbol needs to be removed from the guide until we reach a consensus to add it. Transcriptions linking here (listed at Category:Pages with Japanese IPA, linked above) obviously do not use it which violates MOS:IPAINTEGRITY. Sol505000 (talk) 07:56, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]