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Butcher's Apron was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 21 April 2009 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Union Jack. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Union Jack was copied or moved into National flag with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.
This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.
The Terminology section includes a decent paragraph explaining that "jack" was originally a generic term meaning anything smaller than usual, then more specifically a small flag, and so became applied to the Union Jack. However, this is preceded by a quote from the UK Parliament website, claiming that jack was "a shortening of Jacobus, the Latin version of James". I'm sure UK Parliament is regarded as a reliable source, but this is just bollocks, and should be deleted. No serious historian, linguist or vexillologist has ever proposed that the Union Jack was named after King James, and we shouldn't be promoting this nonsense. GrindtXX (talk) 14:13, 25 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The name may alternatively come from the 'jack-et' of the English or Scottish soldiers, or from the name of James I who originated the first union in 1603.
No British law states that the Union Jack is the legal flag of the United Kingdom, therefore, it is the de facto national flag, as de facto literally means it exists in reality, whether recognised by law or other norms. It's only the national flag by historical tradition, precedent, and proclamation, not by Law, making it de facto. When the description states "national flag of the United Kingdom", it's saying as if it's the national flag by Law when it's not CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 14:04, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It was so designated by an Order in Council which was then announced by proclamation. There is no equivalent in US law as far as I am aware, although President Trump appears to be trying to create it via executive orders. So whilst the US relies on primary legislation for such matters, the United Kingdom is one of the dozens of countries around the world that are not the United States. Dgp4004 (talk) 18:22, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Dgp4004 Dude, explain, cuz U.S. law states that the Flag of the United States is the Flag of the United States; 50 stars, 13 stripes. No U.K. law states that the Union Flag is the flag of the United Kingdom. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 18:26, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Did you not hear? What does US law have to do with it? The UK is a constitutional monarchy. The flag was announced by royal proclamation. That's as official as it gets. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:32, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It would be worth reading up on the Order in Council article and it will make more sense to you :)
'Orders in Council typically allow the executive to make formal decisions or regulations without enacting new legislation.' They are a legal instrument that doesn't exist in the US so it will seem totally alien. Dgp4004 (talk) 18:45, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Dgp4004 1. I'm not American, 2. How is the United States related to this? 3. The British parliament is the supreme legislature of the United Kingdom, and if my knowledge is correct, only Parliament can make laws and pass them, not some executive council. The legislature makes the laws, the executive executes and/or enforces them. So the Union Jack is still the de facto flag and no Executive council can make it "legal" when they aren't Parliament. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I mentioned the US is because the idea that something is only made official and legal if it's made so in primary legislation is an American idea. In the British tradition, parliament will often pass an act of parliament which enables the Crown (the government) to decide on something later by an order in council. That's what article one of the Act of Union 1800 says. It enabled the king to decide on the symbols by an order in council. Dgp4004 (talk) 18:59, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Dgp4004 Yeah, but is an order in council law? Did Parliament make or pass it? Because if I am right, Parliament is the supreme legislative body in the United Kingdom, and again if I am right, only they can make laws, not the King, not the Crown, not the Government or order in council that PARLIAMENT IS SUPREME OVER. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 19:07, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You are not right. In addition to Orders in Council, there exist other statutory instruments. There are also the legislatures of the Welsh Senedd, the NI Assembly and the Scottish Parliament. Secondary legislation does not require order in council nor royal assent, and can be made, in some cases, by the executive (that is, the Ministers, although under the Carltona Principle that can also be civicl servants with delegated powers), and so on. It's all rather complicated. Please don't use so much bold text. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:12, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Sirfurboy New compromise: "...British law does not recognise the Union Flag as the flag of the UK, but it is the national flag by historical customs and tradition..." in the introductory sentence of the article? CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Look, you are new here, and your enthusiasm is appreciated. But this is how it works: First we find good secondary sources that talk about the matter. Then we see what they say, and weigh them critically, and then we follow what they say in writing the article. It doesn't matter what you or I want to say on this. The article must follow the sources.About sources: don't use newspapers to write historical articles. They are almost always either primary sources or tertiary sources in these cases. The source you cite is tertiary. The writer, Richard Cable, is summarising information taken from secondary sources when giving the history of the flag. He does not state his sources, which is a problem, but the information is tertiary. We also have primary sources that we can't use, such as Hansard for 1908, showing that the government in parliament confirmed that the Union Jack is the national flag [1]. We can't use that, nor the text of the order in council itself. If you want to make a change, you need a secondary source (probably going to be a book in this case, considering the subject). Perhaps this one [2], although I expect there are better, Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 21:28, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I can explain it any more clearly without just repeating myself I'm afraid. An order in council is a legal instrument. Again, this American idea of the legislature and the executive — that's not the way it works in the UK. Parliament consists of the king, the commons and the lords. The separation of powers is a US concept. Dgp4004 (talk) 19:14, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Dgp4004 Okay, I'm gonna state my all my thoughts condensed: Who makes the laws in the UK? Is it not Parliament? Yes, the King may be a part of Parliament, but do they make the laws? No, and while yes royal assent from the King is needed for a bill to become law, that does not mean the King makes the law, nor does an order in council. Therefore, if Parliament, not the King or an order in council, does not pass a law stating whether explicitly, directly, indirectly or other forms of stating, that the Union Flag, with the symbols of the three patron saints of Scotland, England, and Ireland, is the legal flag of the United Kingdom, and they make the laws, not the King who gives assent for a legislation to become law, or an order in council, then it simply is not the legal flag. Think of it this way: A dish is not clean if you do not apply soap to clean it, in the same context, the Union Flag is not the legal flag of the UK if Parliament does not make it such. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 19:25, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I can't help you I'm afraid. You seem to think that an order in council is some fairy concept with no legal standing. Perhaps seek out some reliable sources that the flag is a 'de facto' national flag and then come back with them. You've also got a slightly confused understanding of de jure and de facto which would be worth reading up on. Dgp4004 (talk) 19:37, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Dgp4004 New compromise: "...British law does not recognise the Union Flag as the flag of the UK, but it is the national flag by historical customs and tradition..." in the introductory sentence of the article? CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 21:14, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I disagree. I feel that simply saying that it is the national flag is sufficient in the lead. The circumstances of its designation is already expanded on in the appropriate sections of the article body. Dgp4004 (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Look if no one is gonna provide a reasonable justification to not change "the national flag of the United Kingdom" to "De facto national flag of the United Kingdom", I'm changing it. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 18:39, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@CharlesNelson1805: You need consensus to change something on Wikipedia. See WP:CONSENSUS, in particular WP:CONACHIEVE. At the moment, you don't have it, so any change you make will be reverted. Make a better case to convince other users that you are right; giving references helps, SHOUTING doesn't. Bazza 7 (talk) 19:33, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@CharlesNelson1805: Your reference is reliable, but you need to explain how you are using it to achieve your goal of having the article state the Union Jack is the national flag de facto. The reference states that the flag has no official status in British law and is only regarded as the national flag by virtue of "custom and practice". This, however, does not mean that de jure does not apply; the de jure article states the term applies to "practices that are officially recognized by laws or other formal norms", and other editors may be thinking that "other formal norms" may apply here. I think you need further references to find and present to get de facto added; my own view is that this is so unclear that neither term should be used. Bazza 7 (talk) 21:00, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@CharlesNelson1805: I'm not in favour of footnotes for information directly pertinent to the article's subject. The article already has words to that effect, at Union Jack § Status in the United Kingdom. If you are simply wanting a short sentence in the lead ― perhaps in the second sentence ― then say that; you have not once stated simply "I want to change X to Y" and let other participating editors know this. Bazza 7 (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Bazza 7 New compromise: "...British law does not recognise the Union Flag as the flag of the UK, but it is the national flag by historical customs and tradition..." in the introductory sentence of the article? CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 21:13, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You'd be on much safer ground saying that it's the de jure flag of the crown but does that make it the de jure 'national flag' or only de facto? The idea of an individual flying a flag in the modern sense was not a thing in 1801. Flags were flown by governments, not subjects, and the order in council does not mention the term 'national flag'. The ability of a subject to fly the flag was only cleared up in twentieth century.
No, I'm making your case for you on more solid ground. You'd need to throw doubt on the issue of whether a government flag is automatically the 'national flag'.
An Order in Council may have made the Union Flag the flag of the United Kingdom, but the order in council can make more than just laws, not laws only, and the order in council that made the Union Flag the UK Flag (5th November 1800), does not say it's the legal flag, and I fully understand the difference between de facto and de jure. Not to add, nothing else in British law says the Union Flag is the legal flag of the United Kingdom or not. Yes I do agree that it is the national flag, for it is universally recognized and flown as such, I just don't agree it is the legal national flag, and I am working on references, take it easy, I've never made one before. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 19:50, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm done with trying to get a consensus, it's clearly impossible, not even Philippians 4:13 applies to this, because there's whole rules and regulations such as I need references to back me up, or the fact that they should be reliable. All I'm saying, the Law of the United Kingdom does not designate the Union Jack as the legal national flag of the UK. I tried in vain, no result. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"The Union Flag is the national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the Crown Dependencies and the Overseas Territories. " www.gov.uk
"The Union Flag, commonly known as the Union Jack, is the national flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." House of Commons Library
"The Union with Ireland Act 1800 gave effect to the Articles of Union. Article 1 referred to flags ... The design of the new flag ... was set out in a Royal Proclamation, dated 1 January 1801. ... was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag"." House of Commons Library, PDF
Not an official source, but close: The Encyclopedia Britannica says "The Union Jack is the most important of all British flags" and doesn't say anything like "de facto" or "not official".
The House of Commons Library PDF also contains the following: "In 2008 a Private Member’s Union Flag Bill was presented by Andrew Rosindell MP. The Bill provided a formal definition of the composition of the Union Flag as the official flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. It confirmed the proportions of the flag and how it should be flown. This Bill did not become an Act." Full text of the bill: [3][4] The bulk of text is concerned with the graphical details of the flag, but it also contains this sentence: "The Union flag, as described by this Act, shall be the official flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." Given that this bill did not become law, one could argue that the Union Jack is not the "official" flag. But since the other sources are pretty official, it would be wrong to say it's merely the "de facto" flag.
You created a new account just to post that question? Sure, you said "vanishing this account", but there's no need for that. If I had created a new account every time I couldn't convince a few stubborn editors to fix an obviously wrong article, I'd have... I don't know, dozens of accounts. A hundred? Not sure. Anyway, stuff like that is no big deal. — Chrisahn (talk) 00:10, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Union Jack is the official national flag of the UK. That's what king, goverment and parliament say. Nobody doubts it. There is no other national flag. The term "de facto" simply is not suitable for a case like this. – But I'm sure you won't be convinced. So be it. I won't respond anymore, there's nothing else I could say. — Chrisahn (talk) 01:23, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Chrisahn Hold on there champ, don't stop so quickly man. Yes I do agree it is the official national flag, I just don't agree that British law designates the Union Jack as the legal British flag BritishEditor17 (talk) 01:28, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This honourable talk page, after 47 replies, concludes with the result of No change to the article; what was suggested is already there. Any further opinions are not needed. CharlesNelson1805 (talk) 03:26, 24 November 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The flag of the United Kingdom has a ratio of 3:5 when used on land (the Union Flag) and a ratio of 2:1 when used at sea (the Union Jack). See The Flag Institute for more information. Since File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg is used for more land-based activities than sea-based activities, it redirects to the 3:5 ratio version of the Union Flag (File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg). If your article needs to use the Union Jack (the 2:1 ratio version), please use File:Flag of the United Kingdom (1-2).svg in your article rather than this version.
I don't understand why the redirect on commons is not visible here on enwiki, and I don't have a strong opinion, but that message sounds like we should probably use the 5:3 ratio. — Chrisahn (talk) 01:12, 14 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
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