User talk:Grorp

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Oh my goodness, from what you describe, you are MUCH more dedicated to this research than I could have imagined. I'm grateful to benefit from all the work you're putting into it.

Yes, I am interested in carriage articles, especially from the Georgian-to-early-Victorian era. (Well, and also horse-related articles in general, but the carriages have particularly caught my interest at the moment.) I don't have the time or resources currently to do much in the way of research, but am happy to contribute what I can in the way of more casual editing (a copyedit here, a wikilink there) or any feedback that might be helpful. Thank you for sharing your workpage -- I'll check it out! -- Avocado (talk) 22:00, 10 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Avocado: Any chance you could translate "Georgian-to-early-Victorian era" into a year range for me?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:34, 15 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's kind of fuzzy, but let's say ~1700-1860, and especially interested in 1775-1825 or so. -- Avocado (talk) 12:16, 15 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Avocado: Okay, you got me working on this. First order of business was to create a new article History of horse-drawn transport out of the glutted history in Carriage, and some material from Cart. I put my list of things to do on the talk page. The Carriage article needs further trimming of the history section so it's a history of the carriage, not all horse-drawn related stuff. I started it. More to do.

In the meantime, you can look at State coach which shows the most elaborate coaches, sorted by year of completion. Scanning that list can give you a sense of which carriage types are in that period range. It looks like the end of the heavy elaborate Baroque-styled coaches on super-long thoroughbraces (straps), and the introduction of the slimlined Berlin body styles. I know that state coaches are not really representative of carriages of the day, except for seeing the transformation over time which matched innovations in coachbuilding.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 04:38, 16 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, wow, very excited about that article -- lmk how I can be helpful!

And yes, I'm somewhat familiar with the names (and in some cases general characteristics) of many of the types of carriage produced in this period. I've been digging into the articles to try to learn more details about them and what distinguishes each one, since -- as with the Milord we were discussing -- the names tend to overlap. Or as in the case of the phaeton (which from what I've read elsewhere in less than entirely reliable sources may have also had a much more dangerous 2-wheeled form), the forms given a single name seem to have varied massively over time. Definitely interested in uncovering more varieties, too -- the Milord was new to me, for instance! And the list in horse-drawn vehicle is a great resource in that regard.

The state coaches do tend to be of the slow and heavy variety, though they reflect some of the generally-used styles of the period (such as the Berlin and the Landau). The lighter ones such as the curricle/chaise or phaeton are less well represented there. The Barouche (which seem to have been a middle-weight carriage), various forms of stagecoaches, and the early forms of the hackney carriage (which sadly we don't have much info about beyond licensing, buried in an article mostly about modern cabs) are also of interest.

In any case, like I said, lmk what I can do do help out as you work on these articles! -- Avocado (talk) 13:16, 16 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Anything that was "owner driven" (driven from the passenger seats) wouldn't be in the category of state coaches, since those coaches were vehicles of status, either driven by liveried coachmen or postilions, who never sat beside the passengers. The hackney was mostly a "use", not a style. Whatever vehicles the lords and ladies were tired of were sold "down" the socio-economic ladder, eventually ending up on the streets as a public hack. And since horses and vehicles were expensive to keep and operate, there became a thriving business of rented turnouts (either by the day or the season) so no doubt the intermediate level hacks also tried to stay somewhat fashionable. With vehicles migrating through all the these strata of society, as well as innovations and fashion fads affecting each new year of coachbuilding, it's no wonder that the names of vehicles are somewhat fluid.

Maybe you can assist in some ways. I'll send you an email with some suggestions that might tempt.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 23:45, 16 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yes, that makes sense re hackney carriages. Maybe worth a sentence in the article if we can find a source. Fwiw, the lede of our hansom cab article somewhat implies that a hackney carriage was a style of carriage, not just a usage -- so maybe that needs a tweak as well.

As I mentioned previously, i don't have time at the moment for meaningful amounts of research (and that's about to diminish further as I've finally found a new job), but I'm definitely happy to poke around Commons for photos (and hope they're labeled correctly).

Sadly, I'm an ugly American, rather than British, so I can't help with the horse-drawn lorry vs. trolley distinction as far as cargo vehicles. In 20th-21st C usage in the US, a trolley would be a streetcar or bus and would carry passengers rather than cargo -- including in the horse-drawn era, at least based on how my grandparents and great-grandparents used the word. It may be worth including that usage in the article, or at least a pointer to the horsecar article.

In modern usage, "trolley" also refers to a number of manual wheeled devices, including the uses under the "tools" heading in trolley and some of the ones in dolly, such as a hand truck. "Lorry" isn't a word used here, but I know that in modern usage in the UK it's what we USians call a truck. -- Avocado (talk) 12:48, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As suggested, I fixed Hackney carriage and Hansom cab.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 21:36, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! -- Avocado (talk) 23:02, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just made an edit attempting to further clarify the form vs. usage element of the "hackney" terminology. Feel free to revert if you think it's a step backward. -- Avocado (talk) 23:16, 17 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Seems fine.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:15, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I think I'm ready to do something about the lorries, trolleys, and drays, oh my! They are all related, and would probably do best together so that they can be compared side by side. What do you think about putting all three into one article? I'm not sure what I would call it. Any ideas?   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 02:15, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, combining them sounds like a good idea if we can't tell them apart. Hmmm... "flat-bed cart" seems to describe all three, but isn't the title people would be looking for. I'd be inclined to go with some variation on "dray", since "lorry" and "trolley" require so much more disambiguation. Unless "dray" is used at least as often as a general-purpose term for "cart". Gah!

Okay, here's a wild idea.... what about making them a section of the cart article instead of a stand-alone one? Cart isn't yet so long that it begs for splitting off sub-topics. -- Avocado (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I've gathered a lot of notes, and I could probably tell them apart, maybe, but they're still inter-related enough they should be described in one place, though separately. I'll email you my notes so you can see what I've collected to use to make an article. You'll see that trolley, lorry, dray, and truck are all different items, but I'm leaning towards something like "Horse‑drawn haulage vehicles", but that's still not quite right. Take a look at my notes and maybe you can think of some titles. Maybe a fresh pair of eyes is just what is needed to break up the brain-logjam. If that doesn't work, then maybe I can take my notes and turn it into a nascent article in a generic non-titled sandbox. I could start collecting images, then, too.

As for Cart, no. A cart really is a two-wheeled vehicle and these others are all four-wheeled. Using "cart" for everything is just slang, but technically incorrect.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:27, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Under wagon then, instead of cart? It's bedtime for me, but I saw that you sent an email. Will read and respond in the morning. -- Avocado (talk) 03:38, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I started a page of images in a sandbox as an aid to helping understand the differences. No guarantees that I put each image in the correct category.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 06:24, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

would it be safe to say that many horse-drawn terms have been re-used after the advent of automobiles and other mechanized transport -- If this is meant as a question, the answer is absolutely yes! Though "dray" (as opposed to "drayage") has fallen out of use, as far as I know.

I kind of like the word "haulage" from your sandbox. Maybe "Haulage (horse-drawn)" as a title? "Horse drawn haulage vehicles" kind of works but feels a bit less idiomatic to me. What about "Horse-drawn cargo vehicles" or "Horse-drawn freight vehicles"?

Your photos seem to reinforce that a trolley is smaller and lighter than the other forms -- in the photos they're smaller and are mostly drawn by a single horse. That also fits with the modern usage for hand-carts and dollies (though less so for the streetcar usage). From your research, it sounds like the distinction between a lorry and a dray is mostly about the distance they're used for? I'm also seeing -- on average -- heavier horses being used to draw the drays than the lorries in the photos you've collected.

Based on your sources, it also sounds a bit like each term might have had different connotations in different dialects. The notes on suspension are interesting, although I'd suspect that for each variety, suspensions evolved over time. I also noticed "van" show up in one of your snippets. I'm fairly certain a vehicle by that name existed in the horse-drawn era, though it might not have been a cargo vehicle. I think of it as being a vehicle that the Roma or Travelers might have used. However, it would have been a covered vehicle, and generally not flatbed.

Re US usage of "trolley": The word stuck in American English as a synonym for tram. -- in my (obviously not exhaustive) experience, "tram" isn't used much in the US for streetcars, especially not older-style single-car streetcars. Where it is used for surface vehicles, it's typically a very light multi-car vehicle. And it's just as likely IME to refer to an aerial tramway.

-- Avocado (talk) 15:16, 18 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ta da! You inspired me. These exchanges have been very helpful.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 07:38, 19 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Ooooh, fantastic work! -- Avocado (talk) 15:33, 19 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

		The Original Barnstar
		Before disappearing on vacation, I just wanted to drop this off in appreciation of your extensive recent work writing and improving any number of horse-drawn vehicle-related articles! Happy [solstice-time holiday of your choice], and happy new year! --Avocado (talk) 09:29, 25 December 2025 (UTC)[reply]

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

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