Wikipedia

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Music#Pitch

Upgrading MOS:ALBUM to an official style guideline

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I dropped this notice at the main WikiProject Music talk as well, but thought some eyes here might be different and appreciate the notice. At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums/Album_article_style_advice#Upgrade_MOS:ALBUM_to_an_official_guideline, I have proposed making MOS:ALBUM an official style guideline, as currently it is only an essay. Feedback is welcome!--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on guidance for bonus and alternative track listings

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I've started an RfC about what guidance, if any, there should be for bonus and alternative tracks in album articles: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums#RfC_on_bonus_and_alternate_track_listings. Thanks.--3family6 (Talk to me|See what I have done) 11:53, 16 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Dropping dimdeg and degree symbol guidance

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I'm not sure why Template:Music has both {{music|dim}} and {{music|dimdeg}}. For typographic consistency, it seems like there should only be one. {{music|dim}} seems to be what is overwhelmingly used in practice. It is also more typographically consistent with {{music|halfdim}} uses a superscript lowercase slashed letter "ø"? Would anyone object if I convert all "dimdeg" instances into "dim" and dropped support and documentation for "dimdeg"?

I also see that Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Chords, progressions, and figured bass recommends using either the degree symbol or a superscript letter "o". Would anyone object to dropping the degree symbol from this guidance for similar reasons? -- Beland (talk) 01:46, 18 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing no objection, I've made these changes. -- Beland (talk) 18:18, 26 May 2025 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:MUSICCAPS and the stylization of music titles

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Stemming this discussion from a page-specific topic as this has become a wide-spread topic of discussion across multiple music-related articles. Per the above-linked Wikipedia:Manual of Style, it states: Exceptions are not made to mimic logo/cover stylization, even if such mimicry is common in the music press. And given that artists are now using full stops, exclamation points, etc. as album titles, would the stylization of those fall under the aforementioned quoted text concerning stylization (covered by the MoS), or would it not? And if so, should it be addressed under this Manual of Style page as a whole, to stop the endless back/forth of "Well, X page does it, so Y page should, too." It's becoming a persistent problem that exists within music articles as a whole at the moment, and I'd like to hear the communities feedback on this. livelikemusic (TALK!) 00:16, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The issue in the nutshell is if a) stylization comments in the article opening are allowed such as "Sour (stylized in all caps)" here and 1832 other articles and b) stylization comments under the track lists are permissible, such for example "All tracks are stylized in all lowercase" here and 109 other articles. My take is that yes, it's permissible because there is a difference between a comment about subject's stylization and the stylization of the writing style itself, which the provided examples are not. MOS:MUSICCAPS shouldn't be overstretched and be used to ban usage of the word "stylized" on Wikipedia. Vinokurov Demis (talk) 00:31, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As I mentioned in the other discussion, the quoted text is in a section and paragraph that specifically applies to capitalization, and to remove it from its context is misleading. James (talk/contribs) 00:35, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but even in the case of Sour and other music-related articles, if it is specific to capitalization, then its stylization should not be noted, per the MoS' wording. But also looking into cases, such as with the use of full stops (i.e., Period (Kesha album)) or other punctuation marks, given how controversial this topic is across multiple articles. And clearly, the way its worded is misleading, to specific state stylization as a whole, and not specifically towards capitalization (as I and [some] others have seen the MoS). livelikemusic (TALK!) 00:44, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:MUSICCAPS doesn't say (I think) that stylization shouldn't be mentioned in articles, as you wrote in the edit summary for your revert here [1], and seem to be saying in the above comment. But then again, English is not my native language. AwerDiWeGo (talk) 03:38, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with this, following a reading and my response to the discussion mentioned. MOS:MUSICCAPS definitely applies in this situation, and we need to stick with what the Manual of Style is stating in regards to that. Stylization should not be noted. For example, after reading a Forbes source, the album is referred to in the source as Period. Nowhere have I seen it noted as ".", as it wouldn't make sense. I am in full agreement with having this issue addressed, taking WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to note. Just because some other articles have noted on an album title stylization, does not mean that said album article has to as well. HorrorLover555 (talk) 04:50, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Can you quote where in MOS:MUSICCAPS does it say that a Wikipedia article cannot mention how an artist capitalizes or stylizes the title of one of their works? Where does it say that no comment about it can be included in an article?
When you say that nowhere have you seen the album noted as ".", you mean nowhere in the Forbes source you mentioned, right? AwerDiWeGo (talk) 05:01, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I have read the Forbes source, multiple articles that cover on the album, and it explicitly mentions the title as "Period". Nowhere in that source does it mention the album as ".". HorrorLover555 (talk) 05:14, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I never asked if you had read the Forbes source, that is, I never doubted it.
Can you answer to my first question too? AwerDiWeGo (talk) 05:19, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't feel that even noting stylizations (eg "stylized as such-and-such") is worthy of inclusion. Stylizations are overwhelmingly trivial. So the album's name is written in lowercase or uppercase on the album cover, so what? Popcornfud (talk) 05:02, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You're probably right. The thing is that two different things are mixed in this thread. The origin of the dispute is not over a stylization as lowercase or uppercase, which is almost always trivial. We're talking about something that's indeed trivial, but the other way around: an album is titled ".", and the Wikipedia article about it apparently shouldn't even mention that it's titled "." because of some made-up reasons that some say are in some guideline (which they're not), and we're only allowed to name it "Period" and any comment on its stylized title "." is forbidden and reverted. AwerDiWeGo (talk) 05:15, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Capitalization let alone stylization are not always trivial, see Thank You Aimee. A blanking rule banning all use of the word "stylized" on Wikipedia does not and must not exist. Ideally, a decision whether to include or exclude these remarks should be made per single article basis based on the verifiability criteria, if reliable sources mention the fact of this stylization, for example Vinokurov Demis (talk) 23:38, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Let's see for example AllMusic, specifically the biography page on the artist. The first mention of the album is as follows: "...and her sixth studio-album, 2025's . " (AllMusic doesn't even add the "Period" subtitle at the first mention, they just write ".").[2] At the second mention they clarify: "Arriving in July 2025, the full-length . (as in the period at the end of a sentence) found Kesha..."
AllMusic's review of the album is here: . Review (that's the title of the prose section, that is, the professional review of the album). And starts as follows: "No typo, Kesha's sixth studio album, 2025's ., is literally the period at the end of a sentence..."
Wikipedia follows a different manual of style and names the album differently. No objection. But, Wikipedia can't tell readers anything about "." being used elsewhere as the title of the album?
We can't tell how some reliable sources call the album? AwerDiWeGo (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to request some topic specificity in order to have productive discussion. Is the subject here:
  • What the title, lead sentence, and/or infobox title of the specific article discussing the album recently released by Kesha should be?
  • Whether the commonly used text (stylized as [blank]) or (stylized in [case]) is prohibited in all articles about musical albums?
  • Something else?
I hope clarification will help lead to consensus, instead of continuing to talk past each other. James (talk/contribs) 06:50, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In my opinion these cases should depend on what the subject is named as in trademark/copyright documents.★Trekker (talk) 21:38, 5 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment As far as I can tell, the policy only forbids using the stylization in prose (i.e., not writing Sour as SOUR in the article text). I do not see any policy banning the mere mention that such a stylization is used and this discussion seems to have derailed to mainly focus on a single album that doesn't even have any letters in its title to capitalize. Just saying the album is stylized in all caps is not the same as writing the title in all caps throughout the article, and this MOS appears to ban the latter, not the former. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 19:31, 6 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    No discussion has derailed. Talking about specific examples is often part of the best way to talk about the general topic, as most teachers and professors know. And the general topic went beyond capitalization since the beginning. AwerDiWeGo (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]