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Editors sometimes propose that the page should be renamed to male circumcision, male genital mutilation, or male genital cutting. Consensus has rejected these proposals, because they are used in only a small minority of reliable sources. Most reliable sources refer to circumcision as "circumcision"; thus, in accordance with WP:TITLE, Wikipedia does the same. |
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"sometimes referred to as genital mutilation"
[edit]User:Slatersteven, User:Sirfurboy, do you object to my changes to the article? P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 08:33, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- Yes. Read WP:LEAD. The lead should summarise the main. You are attempting to make the first sentence something that does not summarise the main, which is why you added a citation to it too. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:38, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- If I were to add the fact that circumcision is sometimes considered genital mutilation and referred to as male genital mutilation to some place in the main body of the article, would you oppose that? P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:38, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- That would altogether depend on the quality of the secondary sources you used for such an edit, and where and how you worked it into the page context. What do you propose? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:36, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- Before you answer read wp:v. Slatersteven (talk) 12:01, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- That would altogether depend on the quality of the secondary sources you used for such an edit, and where and how you worked it into the page context. What do you propose? Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 11:36, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- If I were to add the fact that circumcision is sometimes considered genital mutilation and referred to as male genital mutilation to some place in the main body of the article, would you oppose that? P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:38, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, it's why I reverted it. Slatersteven (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- And for what reason? You never provided a reason. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- Yes I did "not in the lede". Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know what that is supposed to be, but it's not a reason.
- If you go to court, you will find that 1) stating the opposite of your opponent's thesis or 2) directing him to some statute are not regarded as sufficient arguments. An argument is one or several premises used to support a conclusion. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:41, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- We are not a court, and wp:lede is clear, the lede is not a newspaper style leader but a summary of our article, so yes, it is a reason. Slatersteven (talk) 10:46, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- where do you propose the alternate name should be added in that case? ~2025-43632-00 (talk) 09:34, 31 December 2025 (UTC)
- There should not be an alternate name. Jamesmanvsmassifiovongino (talk) 04:30, 3 January 2026 (UTC)
- where do you propose the alternate name should be added in that case? ~2025-43632-00 (talk) 09:34, 31 December 2025 (UTC)
- We are not a court, and wp:lede is clear, the lede is not a newspaper style leader but a summary of our article, so yes, it is a reason. Slatersteven (talk) 10:46, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- Yes I did "not in the lede". Slatersteven (talk) 10:37, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
- And for what reason? You never provided a reason. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:35, 27 December 2025 (UTC)
Effects picture
[edit]
What is the purpose of this image being included in the article (especially in the effects section)? We already have pictures of circumcised penises in the article, and in this photo, the circumcision scar isn’t very visible. I think we should remove it. Prcc27 (talk) 06:41, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- In general, it's necessary for readers to be exposed to the 'body horror' of the consequences of circumcision.
- I don't understand how anyone could defend and advocate for this practice, other than as a result of deep repression of regret and shame and post-hoc rationalization of what was done to them. I wouldn't know, because I don't have skin in the game.
- This article is highly dependent on obfuscation and misrepresentation of the facts by secondary sources, and on varying editorializations of the same basic facts. Here circumcision is described as 'one of the world's oldest and most common medical procedures." This is also true of F.G.M., but there are no academic sources arguing for the practice and as a result putting the same facts in such terms, so as to legitimize it.
- There is no medical or moral basis for permitting the genital mutilation of the majority of infant boys in i.a. the United States. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 07:07, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- Based on this reply, I am removing this image. Wikipedia is not censored, but an image designed to expose the reader to 'body horror' is not in accordance with WP:NPOV. The image is not illustrative of anything in the article that is not already illustrated. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:20, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- Well, I had nothing to do with adding the image, so you can hardly use my reply here as justification for its removal.
- The image is a circumcised penis with some items labeled - the subject of the article. Do you find it horrible?
- Of course, genital mutilation and its consequences are objectively horrible - harmful operations conducted on unconsenting children as religious tradition. But here the circumcision scar has mostly healed. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:12, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- I must have looked at this thing for ten minutes. It's mesmerizing. I ask Allah to relieve me. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 17:11, 30 December 2025 (UTC)
- https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:SOAP&redirect=no See this Jamesmanvsmassifiovongino (talk) 18:21, 29 December 2025 (UTC)
- Based on this reply, I am removing this image. Wikipedia is not censored, but an image designed to expose the reader to 'body horror' is not in accordance with WP:NPOV. The image is not illustrative of anything in the article that is not already illustrated. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:20, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
- As we have plenty of images it's hard to see what this one adds. Slatersteven (talk) 10:59, 28 December 2025 (UTC)
Circumcision on other major language Wikipedias
[edit]The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Quoted material from other language Wikipedia pages
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es.wiki: The circumcision —from Latin circumcīsiō, -ōnis, word composed in turn of circum- ‘around’ and cisius ‘cut’— is one surgical operation which consists of cutting a portion or all of it foreskin del human penis. It is practiced mainly for ritual or medical reasons. When it is performed as a medical procedure it is called postectomy. Circumcision can be performed for reasons therapeutics, especially in the treatment for balanoposthitis chronic, viral infections, correct the phimosis or the paraphimosis. The WHO considers male circumcision as part of a broader set of measures to prevent infection HIV. These measures would include the promotion of safe sexual practices and the use of condom. Therefore, circumcision does not replace other methods of proven effectiveness, such as, for example, the systematic and correct use of condoms. There are different ways to perform circumcision, depending on where the cut is made and the amount of foreskin removed. As a general rule, once done, the glans it is permanently discovered. Circumcision raises some ethical issues and is the cause of controversy and medical and legal debate around the world.Ethical and legal questions have been raised about informed consent and human rights regarding the circumcision of infants and children for non-therapeutic reasons. He Council of Europe considers that ritual circumcision performed on children without a therapeutic reason is a violation of their physical integrity. No major medical organization recommends universal circumcision for all males, nor its prohibition. The positions of the world's leading medical organizations range from considering facultative circumcision of infants and boys as a practice that lacks both significant risks and benefitseven the one who maintains that the procedure has a modest health benefit that outweighs the risks. Many scientists argue that circumcision decreases the risk of HIV infection and all types of sexually transmitted infections. fr.wiki There circumcision, in latin : circumcisio, "cutting around, cutting", designates, in its most widespread form, l’ablation total or partial of foreskin, thus removing its functions and leaving it glans penis permanently exposed. According to l’World Health Organization (WHO), in 2009, 661 million of men over 15 years would be circumcised, approximately 30% of the world's adult male population. Circumcision can be performed for reasons therapeutics, particularly in the treatment of phimosis and paraphimosis ; it is then called " posthectomy " (from Greek posthe : foreskin; ectomy : excision). Circumcision ritual has been practiced for cultural and religious reasons sinceAntiquity in Ancient Egypt and in black Africa then in the judaism and theislam. This rite is also in use among certain communities christians (notably oriental). Circumcision systematically requires essential conditionshygiene andasepsis, as well as support for the pain adapted, including during ritual practices, which is far from being universally practiced,. Indeed, theWHO emphasizes that "circumcisions for religious or traditional reasons often take place in non-medical settings although, in some cultures, they increasingly take place in a medical setting",. Some populations practice circumcision for more cultural than religious reasons, citing reasons of hygiene and risk reduction d’infection, but also by tradition, social cohesion, identity, or again masculinity, like the United States, of Philippines, or the South Korea, countries in which the majority of men are circumcised. The practice of circumcision has increased in the western world at the beginning of XXe century until becoming a routine operation on newborns, but it has nevertheless been in sharp but variable decline since the second half of the XXe century except in the United States. The positions of medical organizations regarding circumcision prophylactic (disease prevention) of children and adults are diverse and contradictory. Indeed, theWHO and UNAIDS recommend circumcision at any age in order to counter AIDS in high areas prevalence, when l’American Academy of Pediatrics states that "the benefits of circumcision of newborns outweigh the risks" and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention believe that medical staff should inform all parents of boys as well as all teenagers and uncircumcised adult men on the medical benefits of circumcision,. These positions were contradicted by representatives of numerous medical associations (mainly in Europe), the Swedish organization even believes that non-therapeutic circumcision of minors should be prohibited. Generally practiced on children without compelling medical reasons, circumcision raises many questions related to circumcision throughout the worldethics, and she is the object of controversies and of legal debates. This is how the Council of Europe considers religious circumcisions of children a violation of their physical integrity,. de.wiki Circumcision (from Latin circum ‚around, around‘ / Latin incisere ‚cut‘: Latin circumcisio ‚Circumcision‘), also male circumcision, primarily means the complete removal of the male foreskin. Contrary to its original meaning, partial removal of the male foreskin is now often considered a circumcision. Circumcision is one of the most frequently performed physical procedures worldwide and is usually performed from religious and cultural Motives carried out, rarely with medical indication. Currently, it is estimated that between 33% and 39% of the male world population. Circumcision of healthy children on the eighth day of life applies in Judaism as a commandment God. The Quran does not mention them explicitly. Nevertheless, in Islamic countries it is known as Sunnah widely used and is carried out in childhood or adolescence. In some societies, circumcision is a Initiation ritual; this ritual symbolizes the acceptance of the young person into the community of adult men. Circumcision is one of several treatment options (see B. Triple incision), which, for example, occur in severe forms of pathological phimosis is considered indicated if treatment alternatives are not promising or have not previously produced a cure. Circumcision as a routine procedure is particularly controversial among minors, although not to an extent that is comparable to that of universal ostracism the Female genital mutilation would be comparable. Many child protection associations and some medical organizations reject non-medically justified circumcision because it irreversibly changes the body and is not in line with health protection and child welfare in the case of boys who are unable to consent. In the Anglo-Saxon world, there has long been a social debate between groups of opponents of circumcision („intactivists“ movement) and supporters. Medical benefits and risks are particularly controversial, including in children ethical and legal aspects and the assessment with regard to the human rights, especially the right to physical integrity. ru.wiki Circumcision or circumcision — traditional practice or surgical operation (circumcision, from lat. circumcisio) — removal in male members foreskin with various objectives: social (initiation, regulation of sexuality, prevention of sexual practices considered to be vicious); religious (dedication to God, currently practiced mainly in jews (hebrew. brit mila — lit. «covenant of circumcision») and muslims; medical (elimination of anatomical deficiency, disease prevention); national (for example, as a sign that even a non-religious Jew belongs to his people). A somewhat similar procedure on the female genital organs is called «female circumcision». zh.wiki Circumcision, also known as penile circumcision or, in a religious context, male circumcision, is one of the oldest known surgical procedures in human history and the most common surgical procedure performed on men. The reasons for performing it may be related to medical, hygienic, aesthetic, social, and religious cultural factors [1][2][3]. It is estimated that approximately 40% of men worldwide have undergone circumcision, but the actual number may be higher due to the diversity of surgical methods and the fact that many circumcisions are performed in private homes or clinics [4][5][6]. The purpose of circumcision is to remove the skin (foreskin) that covers the tip of the penis, fully exposing the glans. It is commonly used to treat conditions such as phimosis and redundant foreskin. Circumcision can be performed at different ages throughout a man's life, with no fixed age limit [7][8][9][10][11][12]. The World Health Organization defines voluntary circumcision as a simple and safe procedure and includes it as part of its comprehensive HIV prevention strategy [13][14][15]. Between 2007 and 2020, the WHO provided nearly 30 million preventative circumcisions in sub-Saharan African countries. It is estimated that these procedures will prevent 1.6 million HIV infections by 2030 [16][17][18]. Furthermore, men who have undergone circumcision have a lower risk of syphilis compared to uncircumcised men [19]. Circumcision can also reduce the risk of cancerous changes caused by human papillomavirus (HPV) [20][21], as well as reduce the risk of urinary tract infections and penile cancer [22][23][24]. Common circumcisions are elective procedures performed on infants and children for religious or cultural reasons [25]. Some circumcisions are also performed for therapeutic or preventative reasons. From a medical perspective, medically necessary circumcision is typically only considered when there are clear indications, such as phimosis complicated by recurrent infections, balanitis unresponsive to other conservative treatments, or recurrent chronic urinary tract infections [7][26]. In cases of certain genital anatomical abnormalities or limited medical resources, the decision to perform circumcision usually requires careful evaluation, and the procedure may be delayed or alternative treatments chosen [8][26]. The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) state in their policy statements that the health benefits of neonatal male circumcision generally outweigh the potential risks, and therefore these benefits are sufficient to support families choosing and obtaining this medical service with informed consent [27][28]. Studies show that uncircumcised infants, especially in the first year of life, have an increased risk of urinary tract infections [19]. Currently, no major international medical or public health organization advocates for routine circumcision of all males. Most organizations consider circumcision an intervention or personal choice in specific medical or public health contexts, emphasizing informed consent and individualized decision-making [29]. However, because infants cannot make their own surgical decisions, routine non-therapeutic circumcision raises ethical issues and human rights concerns related to informed consent [30][31]. Globally, men who have undergone circumcision are primarily found in the United States, Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, and some Southeast Asian countries [25][32][33][34]. There are many different theories regarding the origin of this procedure, ranging from religious factors to coming-of-age rituals for boys [35]. The earliest known documentation indicates that circumcision originated in ancient Egypt [25]. Religiously, circumcision is known as ritual circumcision and is part of Jewish Halakha [36], and is also a common practice in Islam, the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church [25][37][38]. |
certainly most of these are more balanced and substantive, and make some mention of the origins of the practice - as a tribal and religious ritual - and also of the ethical controversies and legal prohibitions at the very least the meaningless sentence in the enwiki lead "There are various cultural, social, legal, and ethical views on circumcision." should be replaced with something of some substance also interesting that 'without compelling medical reasons' on fr.wiki and 'non-medically justified' on de.wiki become 'generally electively performed' on en.wiki well, it's hardly 'elective' if performed without any immediate reason and without the consent of the subject fr.wiki: " Generally practiced on children without compelling medical reasons" es.wiki: "No major medical organization recommends universal circumcision for all males, nor its prohibition." de.wiki: "Many child protection associations and some medical organizations reject non-medically justified circumcision because it irreversibly changes the body and is not in line with health protection and child welfare in the case of boys who are unable to consent." zh.wiki: "Currently, no major international medical or public health organization advocates for routine circumcision of all males." P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 10:07, 31 December 2025 (UTC)
- Different wikis have different rules. Slatersteven (talk) 11:16, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
- That may be, but it's probably the fact that routine genital mutilation of infants of either sex is not normal in the French, German, Russian, Spanish, or Chinese-speaking worlds that accounts for the difference. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 13:03, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
- But we are governed by our polices. Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, but the biases and differing values and focuses of editors and societies also contribute to differences between Wikipedias in their presentation of topics. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 13:16, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
- But we are governed by our polices. Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
- That may be, but it's probably the fact that routine genital mutilation of infants of either sex is not normal in the French, German, Russian, Spanish, or Chinese-speaking worlds that accounts for the difference. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 13:03, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
- Did I make any request, or say anything about changes in policy? P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 14:55, 1 January 2026 (UTC)
False equivalence with Female genital mutilation
[edit]Many attempts have been made over the years to rewrite portions of this article to make misleading comparisons or draw false equivalence between the subject of this article and FGM. They have been consistently rejected, and there is a long standing consensus on this article not to do such things (consult the talk page archives for details). Attempting to edit war about this as has been done recently will not work, and making slight variations on such edits does not mean that no one has objected. MrOllie (talk) 01:24, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- User:Slatersteven, User:Sirfurboy,
- you were active on this page recently in opposition to my changes in which I attempted to include in the article the common alternative designation for the subject 'male genital mutilation.'
- I hope I am not wrong in assuming on this basis that you don't regard male circumcision as especially harmful, and also in noting that, being active on the article and talk page, had you objected to my recent edits, you could have reverted them.
- So I would just like you to register whether you disapprove of any of the changes I have made. If you do, I could revise my edits, rather than revert entirely to the status quo lede which I am sure you will agree is objectively inferior in several respects (misinterprets sources, as I noted in revision comments, poorly sourced, structured, and written e.g. w.r.t. origins and prevalence of male circumcision), etc.
- P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 13:40, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- No, the onus is on you not to block revert and have the page locked when you object to a small portion of recent changes. P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 13:41, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
I hope I am not wrong in assuming on this basis that you don't regard male circumcision as especially harmful.
You are wrong to assume anything about my beliefs from my edits. That is not the way I edit on Wikipedia. Have a read of WP:INSCRUTABLE. But Wikipedia is not for advocacy, and MrOllie's response to you is correct. This page is about male circumcision and should not be making false equivalence with FGM. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 14:07, 6 January 2026 (UTC)- Okay, suppose we remove "Like female genital mutilation" from my revision of the final paragraph of the lede. Is there anything else about my revision you find objectionable ? P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 14:13, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- Sure. I didn't like the fact that you are concentrating on the lead and adding novel information there and new sourcing, rather than concentrating on developing the main text. I made that point to you above on 27 December, but you went ahead and modified the lead only, adding new references and spending too long (for the lead) on the history. You also changed other wording in the paragraph without clear rationale. The map you added is visually appealing, but it should be in the main text, alongside prose that talks about prevalence. It also mentions the WHO as a source but doesn't actually provide the source. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:06, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- It seems that the map was copied from Prevalence of circumcision (without attribution, note that that is a violation of licensing requirements per Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia). It's great on that article but I don't think it should be in the lead section of this one. MrOllie (talk) 16:16, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- The WHO source is cited within the text.
- I think the prevalence of a mainly religious and traditional practice is an important fact about that practice.
- What wording did I change without clear rationale?
- Here is my revision
- Like female genital mutilation, male circumcision is one of the world's oldest and most common medical procedures. An ancient ritual predating recorded history and first documented in ancient Egypt, it was first medicalized in England during the 19th century as a preventive measure against the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and the practice of masturbation. It has in recent decades been promoted for adolescent and adult males in developing countries as a cost-effective means of reducing the spread of HIV. Beyond healthcare, circumcision is generally regarded as a religious obligation for Jewish, Muslim, and Coptic Christian men. It is widespread in the United States, the Muslim world, South Korea, Israel, and most of Africa. It is uncommon in Europe, Central and South America, East Asia, Australasia, and parts of southern Africa. The worldwide prevalence of male circumcision is estimated at 30% or 38.7%.
- Here is the older version
- Circumcision is one of the world's most common and oldest medical procedures. Prophylactic usage originated in England during the 1850s and has since spread globally, becoming predominately established as a way to prevent sexually transmitted infections. Beyond use as a prophylactic or treatment option in healthcare, circumcision plays a major role in many of the world's cultures and religions, most prominently Judaism and Islam. Circumcision is among the most important commandments in Judaism and considered obligatory for men. In some African and Eastern Christian denominations male circumcision is an established practice, and require that their male members undergo circumcision. It is widespread in the United States, South Korea, Israel, Muslim-majority countries and most of Africa. It is relatively rare for non-religious reasons in parts of Southern Africa, Latin America, Europe, and most of Asia, as well as nowadays in Australia. The origin of circumcision is not known with certainty, but the oldest documentation comes from ancient Egypt.
- (I only give the final paragraph of the lede, since only this material was blanket reverted by User:MrOllie.)
- Do you not agree that the first is more concise, encyclopedic, and logically arranged? I gave justifications for my changes when making them: "plays a major role" in religions is unacademic and has no basis in sources. Also 'prophylactic usage originated in England' it should probably be noted what male circumcision was promoted as a prophylaxis for.
- I didn't add novel information, since the figures on prevalence are drawn from Prevalence of circumcision and the information on promotion of circumcision to prevent masturbation (a source on which I restored from the main article) is in History of circumcision. But I certainly agree, if this is what you mean to imply, that at least mentions of the two should be made in the main article, since the two are seldom viewed by comparison
- (see here [1] ) P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 18:53, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- Sure. I didn't like the fact that you are concentrating on the lead and adding novel information there and new sourcing, rather than concentrating on developing the main text. I made that point to you above on 27 December, but you went ahead and modified the lead only, adding new references and spending too long (for the lead) on the history. You also changed other wording in the paragraph without clear rationale. The map you added is visually appealing, but it should be in the main text, alongside prose that talks about prevalence. It also mentions the WHO as a source but doesn't actually provide the source. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:06, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
- Okay, suppose we remove "Like female genital mutilation" from my revision of the final paragraph of the lede. Is there anything else about my revision you find objectionable ? P. M., Cat Appreciator (talk) 14:13, 6 January 2026 (UTC)
